South African Game Development - Forums

Thanks Ninjamedia, you bring up some good points, but a most of these are also half-truths and misconceptions. Let me explain:

> One thing that has stood out as common amongst these interviews is that papers are nice, but experience kicks arse! Some of these guys have blatantly stated that they don't even pay any mind to the qualifications simply because there are too many different ones from too many places of study that each devise their own curriculum of 'what constitutes a game oriented course'.

Firstly, you are absolutely right - if you look at the game developer/programmer positions available out there (internationally), most of them actually do NOT require a degree, in fact a lot of places do not even say "degree preferred". They want people who can do specific jobs, and if your portfolio shows that you can do what they need for a particular position they are keen to hire you.

So, where am I coming from then? Basically, there is WAY more to having a degree than simply getting hired:

Firstly, it's great that "they" are willing to hire you based on a good portfolio, but where is this company? In the UK? Germany? Australia? USA? These all require a visa to get into the country (and often a secondary evaluation to get permanent residence later) - there is no tick box on a skilled work visa application for "awesome portfolio". Obviously, if you have inherited citizenship from elsewhere this is not a problem, but in SA the employment situation is as grim as it has always been.

Secondly, what about compensation? If you have a degree, you have more opportunity to move into the games industry (as I mentioned, most but not /all/ game positions require degrees). These jobs are open to you as well as the ones that aren't sticklers for degrees. More importantly though, if you have a degree the company is in competition for you with all the other companies that may hire you (i.e., all the banks, engineering firms, software development houses, Hudsucker Industries, etc.). Even with a degree, game companies are less than competitive, because they exploit the fact that people "want" to work on games providing a large supply (in the economic sense) - without a degree you can expect to be paid often considerably less.

Thirdly, leading from my second point, what happens if you need to find a different type of job? Perhaps you get retrenched during a recession, perhaps you just get tired of the games industry after 10 years - let's say the 80 hours a week crunchtimes doesn't mix well with your new marriage and kids. At this point, if you want to move on to something that is more 9-5 or pays more, you have a problem - a lot of experience, but no formal qualifications. Obviously, the experience counts for something, but the harsh reality is that without the right "paper", your resume is most likely going to land up at the bottom of the pile (or bin). Effectively, a degree is a good backup plan.

> They stated that what really sells them on looking at someone is a person's ability to demonstrate that they are passionate about what they do and then, what sells them on giving them a chance is their portfolio (usually on a website that they can view at their own leasure).

People are often very flippant about a degree as a piece of "paper". A focused program that teaches you the basic scientific and engineering principles that you will need in life is invaluable when building that great portfolio you mention. There is a lot of hopping about in the game industry (local and international) about "portfolio, portfolio, portfolio". I certainly don't disagree with this, but something that really is important to get is this: a portfolio is not just worthless, but it actually hurts your chances if it looks like crap. It is far more important to set the bar to what someone hiring you would consider "good" and hopefully "impressive", and then shoot for that - even if your portfolio only consists of one good piece, that is all you really need. If you are a backend programmer, you want to show off your 3D skills, your pathfinding, AI, physics, integrated scripting, pipeline integration and automation, etc. A degree really helps a LOT with this. If you are shooting to be a gameplay only programmer, these will obviously be less important, but having other skills is more far more likely to get your hired (and even then you don't want a portfolio looks and plays like an Atari 2600 tribute).

> So from what I have surmised from these interviews is that there is no substitute for experience.

About this whole degree vs. experience thing: All things being equal, gaining a degree rather than experience puts one on a higher slope of growth per unit time. This has been established time and time again. For example, using this as a basis, the USA equates 1 year of study with 3 years of experience when considering VISA applications.

> Working on demos at home and showing you are capable with no papers is worth more than a doctorate with no viewable samples...

Actually, no. To achieve a doctorate you have to familliarize yourself with the entire body of cutting edge research in a particular field, then over a period of several years you have conceive of, implement and evaluate one or more new and significant technique(s) in that field, and then publish them in peer reviewed conference proceedings or journals and produce a thesis. If this work is done in a field related to game technology (rendering, AI, physics, parallel algorithms, presence/immersion, etc.) such an individual would be incredibly useful and high in demand for any game company wanting to stay on the cutting edge of technology. For the most part, PhDs join companies (even game companies) as "senior developers" and "specialists", right out of university.

whew.

Crowley9 wrote:Firstly, it's great that "they" are willing to hire you based on a good portfolio, but where is this company? In the UK? Germany? Australia? USA? These all require a visa to get into the country (and often a secondary evaluation to get permanent residence later) - there is no tick box on a skilled work visa application for "awesome portfolio". Obviously, if you have inherited citizenship from elsewhere this is not a problem, but in SA the employment situation is as grim as it has always been.

Exactly! That is something people (and me) don't always keep in mind. I was looking into New Zealand immegration in 2008 and you had to have a 4 year degree or 6 years experience - now this was for immegration without sponsorship from a job, but that gives you an idea.

The way I normally work is on a self-taught basis. It has worked out well for me thus far, but I know that attending some form of classes or doing a few years in Computer Science and related definitely won't hurt, infact, it should be of great benefit. Although experience is king.

This is exactly the reason why I've started a business a few years ago... that's to enable me to fund our own game development company. The only real way I see how we can turn things around in South Africa regarding game development is having the best of us here to each work at starting companies and become successful, its utterly stupid of those that can to stand around and wait for somebody else to do it.

The biggest problem I see regarding game development in SA is the lack of locals to actually respect each other's efforts, one would think that everyone that thinks alike will be drawn closer to each other, but instead, those that think alike become best of enemies (not friends), which I find kinda disturbing.

Like this one local gamedev forum is constantly punting XNA. At the time I was learning XNA, so I started a idTech2 renderer using XNA just to check what one can do with XNA. Before I started I thought of XNA as a maker-style tool, but as things moved along I got more and more impressed, so I released the project with full source code. As expected the project was downplayed. Funny enough, only by locals, I've been enjoying international attention (emails/advice etc.) ever since. From that forum someone replied with the following:

All I have to write about are Luma, Luma, and holy-****-not-again Luma. Which is cool, except that our country is making itself look like a one-trick pony. Korax contacted me through several e-mails and press packs to get his XNA engine onto Dev.Mag's front page. I know some people don't like it, but that's *far* more effort than most of us are putting into the product-whoring deal right now, and I challenge anybody who doesn't like it to just sit down for a moment and give me their own offer. And I know that the mag is a damn small fish in a big ocean of media moguls, but our network is steadily becoming broader and there's nothing more that I'd like than to send my next e-mail to all the other media peeps out there and say, "Hey there, here's that game that I promised you. Enjoy."

It will be difficult for South Africa to get ahead if lack of mutual respect doesn't get sorted as the pool of willing and able game developers (professional) is VERY small.

http://www.sagamedev.com/developerjournal_post.aspx?journalid=28
http://www.quake-engine.com/screenshot.aspx?game=q2

Slightly OT... sorry.

Oh what I wouldn't give for a degree...

As mentioned in the first part of that very long elaboration on my post, even if you can get a job overseas you need a degree to get a visa to go... What a shlep... Of course, if you can get a job offer based on your skills then the points awarded for that skyrocket your immigration chances.... I have been looking at going to any country that is off the African continent and looking at places like Canada or Australia... In Canada a job offer counts for half of your points already... Australia SOUNDED real cool in that being a professional in ANY IT field (it looks like) makes them drool in the mouth... I completed the online assessment and qualified with flying colors.

"Can you speak English? Have you worked in IT for 12 months in the last 48 months? Are you an IT Professional? Great. You qualify. Won't you please do us the honor of coming to our country? You will!? Fantastic! Let's just verify your 'Professional' status. Do you have an IT degree and 4 years experience? No? How about any degree with IT subjects (or a 3 year diploma) and 6 years experience? No? Well, if you have no papers, how about 9 years experience? Please submit a 40 to 60 page document explaining what kind of experience you have."

I am still here...

On the other hand, a job offer from Canada and I get permanent residence... A degree is really worth while getting just to make life easier, but have you seen how much they cost? Looking online I have found prices up to $70,000.00 if you download everything as PDFs. If you want actual text books it will cost you extra. So that's nearly a million rand just to get a degree... Ouch! I'm sure you can argue the whole: "But compare that to what you can earn with it" point and I can't disagree with that, but who the heck has a million rand just laying around the house these days? Get a million rand loan to do a course that might help you get out of the country ... or not and leave you with a million rand's worth of dept... I sincerely doubt it would be as easy as "Get a degree, pick and choose a job from the list of people throwing themselves at your feet, pay back your million rand debt in 12 months, enjoy a life of being filthy rich"

Again, if you can get a degree then fantastic and I will not play down the importance of that one bit... But a million rand? Plus interest and 3 years of (possibly full time) study plus exam fees and such... I know there is no way on this earth that I can afford that unless I am already earning an income in foreign currency...

Check my signature for a link to the GameInstitute.com. Their courses are real affordable and actually count towards real college degrees... But again the costs... To use them you need to register for a credits bank at $275, then pay for the courses and save the points there. Fine this part is fine, but then when you want to use the points... Each college is different and the nice thing about their system is that you can store the points indefinitely and use it for credit with many many colleges and universities of your choice... but the one they recommend... $75 application fee, $880 enrollment fee, $400 annual student fee, exam fees, $100 graduation fee, $1000 per 3 point module (you need 120 points)... do the maths...

Only the super rich can afford a degree... either that or buy one... 100% legal... just not accredited... So unless you buy one in the country you intend to go to it won't be of much use and even then it might not be of much use anyways... But for local use it is 100% legal. If you need a degree for local job promotion it will cost you around R5000 and that is that. Fully legal and verifyable degree in 7 days... but for immigration purposes they require "nationally accredited qualifications" from the country where it was issued so private colleges help 0%...

So... for me, personally, the only options are:
1. Do my own thing, get recognized, get a job offer, go without a degree...
2. Do my own thing, make a lot of money, use that to buy a degree many years from now, go overseas, giving up my already lucrative enough business that afforded me the million rand to study for the degree and take up a job for a boss again...
3. Do my own thing, make a lot of money, spend it all on tons of machine guns and guard dogs and snakes and if I still manage to survive until the age of 65, then emigrate to a country that allows the elderly to retire there... Like Mauritius...

> Of course, if you can get a job offer based on your skills then the points awarded for that skyrocket your immigration chances....

Having a job is a really important part (even required for the USA), but you will find that the one thing in common in every country is that your future employer will have to justify to some government body that the skills for your job are so scarce, that they cannot find anyone local to do what you can do. This is really difficult to do without a degree. Even in the case where (a whole lot of) experience can be substituded for qualifications, you have the burden of proof to show that your previous work is related to your new job offer, and that you really have the experience (letter's from past employers, expected them to be interviewed, etc.). These applications seldom work.

> A degree is really worth while getting just to make life easier, but have you seen how much they cost? Looking online I have found prices up to $70,000.00 if you download everything as PDFs. If you want actual text books it will cost you extra. So that's nearly a million rand just to get a degree...

What have you been smoking? A BSc at UCT costs ~R31k per year, and UNISA via correspondance is something like a half of that. Furthermore, it is fairly easy to get scholarships, bursaries, loans, part-time university work, etc. to fund it. A degree at a good state university in the USA is ~$6k per year, and books don't add up to more than a few hundred dollars.

> Only the super rich can afford a degree... either that or buy one... 100% legal... just not accredited... So unless you buy one in the country you intend to go to it won't be of much use and even then it might not be of much use anyways

Are you serious? A non-accreditated degree is not worth the paper it is printed on, even in the country you buy it in. It is 100% legal to buy one, but 100% illegal to pass it off as a qualification when looking for a job. You should know that any reasonably large company has staff to verify credentials and WILL catch you.

> If you need a degree for local job promotion it will cost you around R5000 and that is that.

Actually, you just need a piece of paper and some photoshop/GIMP skills. You may also have to ask your mom to answer her cell phone with "University of Fokol, how can I help you?"

> So... for me, personally, the only options are:
> 1. Do my own thing, get recognized, get a job offer, go without a degree...

Not impossible, but difficult. Good luck.

>2. Do my own thing, make a lot of money, use that to buy a degree many years from now, go overseas, giving up my already lucrative enough business that afforded me the million rand to study for the degree and take up a job for a boss again...

There is no way a bought degree will pass the immigration checks of any country you would want to live in.

Dude I love your replies! Lol! Thoughtful with just a splash of cinicism. Loving it

Yeah, misprint near the bottom there... meant to say: Do my own thing, make a fortune and use that money to GET a degree, not BUY a degree... My bad...

Anyways, have a search for De Vry University (as an example)... I am dead serious when I say I have seen ONLINE courses going for over $60 000! Seriously, do a Google for "Online Degree" or "Video Game course" or whatever... Check out some of those prices... They are MAD I tell you... Open University in Australia is currently the cheapest I have seen at only around $14k USD (converted from AUD). Take Excelsior College... Read the fine print... $75 application, $800 enrolment, $400 annual, $275 credit bank, $100 graduation fee... oh and then you have to pay for the courses also... 120 points to get a BSc, each 3 point module costing only $995... That's 40 modules at $995 each... Ouch!

The guy sitting next to me at work is currently doing a course through Unisa so I had a look (again) and it seems I am too dumb to go to college. I can't make heads or tails of what's going on on the website. How will I ever get a degree if I can't even figure out how their website works?

So question, why is it that there are like 10 000 private "colleges" out there offering certificate courses that are all perfectly fine and dandy and nobody gives it a second thought, but an unaccredited degree is not worth the paper it is written on? An unaccredited certificate can land you a job but an unaccredited degree will get you "caught" hmmm... First time I found out about this thing where you can buy a degree online, I told my mom out of sheer surprise. She told a fellow teacher and he got really excited and bought the degree almost immediately... 2 weeks later he quit his job at that school and got a new teaching position at double the pay. They had phoned around and found nothing wrong with the degree and voila... Completely recognised in South africa, he is now earning double his pay and he is happy...

I think this is the road a of a desperate person and you have to be real desperate to go this route, but it is an option if you are that desperate. Mind you, this time you are the one with the half truth... It is legal to buy it, legal to own it, legal to USE it as long as it is not in a field of nursing or medicine etc and (and here comes the catch) depending on the country and the state you are in the validity varies from 100% legal to 100% illegal and everywhere in between... Depending on the country and the state. Some say it is legal to own and display, but not legal to put on your CV. Others don't care and others will throw you in jail without a second thought...

Trust me, I am that desperate to get out of here, I have looked at this option for a while now so I have done my research. I never intended to get a degree to get a fantastic job overseas. Nah, I've landed myself a few good job offers in past WITHOUT the degree so I am sure I can do it again. I wanted... no... WANT a degree for one reason and one reason only: To get out of here. I am more than willing to go flip burgers in McDonalds as long as I can do it off the African continent. Legal, accredited or otherwise, I don't care... I only want a degree to get out of here and that is all that matters to me... Unfortunately for my needs this will not be of any use other than throwing a couple hundred $ down the drain... So I am stuck either trying to figure out Unisa's website or just doing my own thing and stocking up on all forms of weapons I can get my hands on to last me for as long as I am in this godforsaken hellhole ...

So sad...

Fortunately, as I have expressed to a friend of mine recently, I have just now had my first year in the video games industry and I am so uber excited about the success I have had that I don't know what to do with all this excitement. I got so hyped up that I nearly worked myself to death (quite literally, in fact) so I had to slow down and take it easier... but I am still so excited and just blabbering on and on about all that has happened in this first year serves nothing more than being an ego trip and an annoyance to others (I would assume) so I can't share my excitement in words, nor can I use it as fuel to drive myself as I already have too much drive as it is and I have had to slow down or risk loosing my life (again)... So I am hyped up and I know I am going to do even more in this year and the years to come. I am super psyched that I can earn my living doing this... If only you guys knew what I have I the works for this year...

I say again, a degree would be a definite bonus and anyone who wants to get one or anyone who can afford to do so, I would not knock that option... But I honestly believe that people who love this godforsaken place enough to NOT want to leave or people who have come to terms with their inevitable untimely demise do not need one to make a success out of video games. I honestly believe all they require is talent.... Talent and skills!

In fact, I might be willing to take a few of you on a ride with me this year, if interested... Lol... How many times this past year have I said to the people around me: "I have the ideas, the knowledge, the skill, the tools.... just not enough hours in the day"

If there are any modellers out there who can create models to the same level of quality as those found in "Star Ocean" on the 360/ PS3, send me some shots of your work... We may have something to discuss...

I had something planned for this year and then it came to light during a discussion with a certain someone who threw an extra idea or two into the mix and it turns out this project is now a lot bigger than I could have hoped it would be and it now has a team behind it as well as financial backing... So this is going to be a very interesting ride to be sure, but it will make the days even shorter and the workload is now a lot bigger... So yeah, if the talent is there I might be able to swing some work around at a later date. No promises as the deal is now less mine than it was before, but it is always good to have backups... So contact me if you think you are up to the challenge...

> Dude I love your replies! Lol! Thoughtful with just a splash of cinicism. Loving it

I try.

> Yeah, misprint near the bottom there... meant to say: Do my own thing, make a fortune and use that money to GET a degree, not BUY a degree... My bad...

Ok, cool. Although you really don't need a fortune -- there is nothing wrong with a local SA degree. UNISA, WITS, UCT, etc. are well recognized and respected internationally.

> Anyways, have a search for De Vry University (as an example)... I am dead serious when I say I have seen ONLINE courses going for over $60 000! Seriously, do a Google for "Online Degree" or "Video Game course" or whatever... Check out some of those prices... They are MAD I tell you... Open University in Australia is currently the cheapest I have seen at only around $14k USD (converted from AUD). Take Excelsior College... Read the fine print... $75 application, $800 enrolment, $400 annual, $275 credit bank, $100 graduation fee... oh and then you have to pay for the courses also... 120 points to get a BSc, each 3 point module costing only $995... That's 40 modules at $995 each... Ouch!

Are you sure? It looks like it's about $240 for 3 credits at Excelsior, not $995. $10k + $1-2k is very reasonable in the US.
https://www.excelsior.edu/Excelsior_Col ... 9_2010.pdf

Also, I am not saying that there are not expensive options. Stanford will put you back $148k for a four year degree, but there are far cheaper options in the USA, and WAY cheaper options in South Africa.

> I can't make heads or tails of what's going on on the website. How will I ever get a degree if I can't even figure out how their website works?

That's pretty typical of most university sites . Each has their very own "system" of some sort (ostensibly to make life easier). Just mess about with the site a little, and get a feel for the terminology, and it will become clear everntually.

> So question, why is it that there are like 10 000 private "colleges" out there offering certificate courses that are all perfectly fine and dandy and nobody gives it a second thought, but an unaccredited degree is not worth the paper it is written on?

Let me qualify that -- I meant the unaccreditted degrees that one can buy online or via mail order which don't actually have any criteria for giving the qualification other than a ready and willing checkbook or credit card. In terms of certificate courses, these are usually only as good as the reputation of the course and the institution giving them out (or institution backing the certification, e.g., Microsoft for an MCSE), and typically are so variable in quality and value that most countries do not consider them as evidence towards a visa application (hence the requirement for standards bodies and official accreditation for degrees).

> An unaccredited certificate can land you a job but an unaccredited degree will get you "caught" hmmm... First time I found out about this thing where you can buy a degree online, I told my mom out of sheer surprise. She told a fellow teacher and he got really excited and bought the degree almost immediately... 2 weeks later he quit his job at that school and got a new teaching position at double the pay. They had phoned around and found nothing wrong with the degree and voila... Completely recognised in South africa, he is now earning double his pay and he is happy...

I am not suggesting that this does not happen, nor that people don't get away with it. However, when you buy a piece of paper that you get in two weeks that now says you have a degree, and give it to a potential future employer, knowing that your potential future employer is assuming that you have the 4 years of relevant study and expert evaluation to back up the degree, then you are misrepresenting yourself, and are guilty of fraud.

Read these: http://www.onlinedegrees.org/degree-mills.htm, http://www.webschoolusa.com/masters-degree-fraud.html, http://www.nd-center.com/2009/07/legali ... lomas.html

> Mind you, this time you are the one with the half truth... It is legal to buy it, legal to own it, legal to USE it as long as it is not in a field of nursing or medicine etc and (and here comes the catch) depending on the country and the state you are in the validity varies from 100% legal to 100% illegal and everywhere in between... Depending on the country and the state. Some say it is legal to own and display, but not legal to put on your CV. Others don't care and others will throw you in jail without a second thought...

Deliberate misrepresentation of your qualifications while looking for employment is fraud -- no matter where you go or what the position this will hold true and the law will side with your employer.

> So I am stuck either trying to figure out Unisa's website or just doing my own thing and stocking up on all forms of weapons I can get my hands on to last me for as long as I am in this godforsaken hellhole ...

Seriously, try UNISA again. It IS possible to navigate the website - even if it is reminiscent of a hard Sierra game with no walkthrough Both my wife and brother have degrees from UNISA.

> So I am hyped up and I know I am going to do even more in this year and the years to come. I am super psyched that I can earn my living doing this... If only you guys knew what I have I the works for this year...

That is awesome.

> I say again, a degree would be a definite bonus and anyone who wants to get one or anyone who can afford to do so, I would not knock that option...

Right on.

> But I honestly believe that people who love this godforsaken place enough to NOT want to leave or people who have come to terms with their inevitable untimely demise do not need one to make a success out of video games. I honestly believe all they require is talent.... Talent and skills!

Adding the "but" isn't necessary - you are just agreeing and then waving that same old straw man around again. Obviously nobody "needs" a degree to be a success - they don't need matric or the ability to speak more than one language either. The whole point of this thread is to give advice that will allow someone to make the choices that will maximize their probability of success. Also, "Talent and skills", and having a degree are not orthogonal concepts.

"Also, "Talent and skills", and having a degree are not orthogonal concepts."

Point taken. The point I have been trying to make all this time is "A degree is nice but you don't need one". I was advocating saving your money and being an indie, rather than getting a degree. That was my advice... but pitted against you who clearly gets a royalty from every unie in South Africa our different views boil down to "Which is better in all respects, a PS3 or an 360". It's one of those "personal choice" things.

I personally don't want a degree for the job implications as I feel working for a boss is a waste of one's life and everything one does should be geared towards being your own boss. Wether that entails working through the ranks and being top dog at an existing company or starting your own. Be in charge of your life, not a slave to the schedule imposed by someone else. This is why I am willing to get a degree to go flip burgers at McDonalds if it boils down to it. I will gladly take a job at a games company and work there for as long as it takes me to establish my own , but it is not my intention to work for someone else for the rest of my life. I started as an indie with 0% experience and worked my way up to a respected indie and will eventually become a very successful indie and I can do that over here or anywhere else in the world. The degree, in my case, would serve only as a plane ticket out of here.

Now, to not steer the entire country off the cliff, I have to contradict myself and say that this is my view of the world. How many people spend 12 years in school thinking to themselves: "As soon as I leave here I will start my own company" and how many people go through 12 years of school thinking "I hope I get a good job one day that pays very well"? 12 years of gearing yourself up to work for an oppressor is a hard mindset to simply break overnight. That is my view. So a lot of people may feel that the only way to get into any industry is to join a successful company and will immediately aim for Sega or Nintendo as their ultimate goal, feeling depressed at having to look at less well known companies after getting shot down and then... finally... getting their first job and smiling a smile that physically shouldn't fit on their faces, thinking to themselves: "YEEESSS!!!! I got my foot in the door. I wonder how long I will have to stay at this place before Sega will take me in! How long before I can finally start down the road of becoming successful? Look out Sega, here I come. Yes!!! I got a job! I'm almost at Sega! yeay!".

It is like religion. It is something you grow up with and something that sticks to you so that is what you aim for, simply because it is all you have ever known. Hey, I was a kid once, also. I tried my hand at the corporate ladder thing. I am no different than every other kid who ever wondered about he was going to be when he grew up... Unfortunately, some people acquire knowledge with age, I acquired cinicism and a very dreary outlook on life and the monotony of conformity. I want more out of life than going to bed in preparation for getting up at the pre-appointed time to be at my desk at the predetermined time determined by someone else so I can work more than half my waking day towards building someone else's riches only to hope I earn enough to pay all my bills at the end of the month... possibly getting that new TV in the next year or so... Yeah, that was what I spent 12+ years going to school for... So I can buy a new TV in a year's time or so, if I can save up enough by then, that is...

I feel that getting a degree is a way to get yourself trapped in that regime, but earning yourself a more luxurious cell than the little people like myself. Going independent and doing your own thing, that is for me... no degree required. Others are not that brave and require the confines of routine and a steady income. For them a degree is a way to upgrade from bacon and toast to pancakes and syrup. So, in summary, a degree is something I would like to have but I won't regret my life if I do not have one (I won't let me!) but others may want one so, back to the topic at hand... Where?

1. As you can see in my signature, I am a fan of the Game Institute as it offers info I deem worth while to know and the price is not too bad at all. Also the points can count towards an actual degree should you choose to go that route. So for indies just wanting to know what they need to make it on their own, I suppose them...

2. For people who want to get an actual degree from an actual unie before they start looking for work the UCT actually offers a Game Design course. I couldn't find any info for correspondence courses apart from the international students section, though, so I assume full time is the order of the day? Then again, I suppose locals can also do the international course ... Not sure about this...

3. For people who need to make a living while earning a degree Unisa seems the logical way out. I had another look today and surprisingly the site made a lot more sense, although I still wouldn't say it is logically laid out. like when applying for a course they give you a drop down with the courses and give the extensions but the one I was interested in is just called BSc and there are two beneath each other, both just called BSc but with a different number beside it so I had to go out of registration and scan through the various links to get back to where the course is listed and go " Ahhhh, the 02 one". From what I saw, if I am not mistaken, it costs about R800 per module with costs going up around 10% per year. 30 modules required with 10 years to do it in... So that's 3 modules per year at around R2500 per year... Costs more to do it quicker... I have to admit, the local prices are a lot cheaper than the worst case scenario of R1 mil as described earlier... Heck even I can afford to get a degree at this price... Only 10 years to go... Or pay around R5000 a year to do it in 5. Seems a lot more reasonable... 6 modules per year... although they say 5 courses per semester is the max as that will require 40 hours per week / full time study... One thing I have never been able to figure out is "how long is a semester" Lol... Time for me to go to wikipedia

So have I got it right?
1. Game Institute <-- cheap online certificates
2. University Cape Town <-- game related degree, full time study
3. Unisa <-- computer science degree, correspondence

> The point I have been trying to make all this time is "A degree is nice but you don't need one".

That's not a point that needs to be made, that is common knowledge. Rather you are using it in a context that makes it sounds like your are suggesting that people should not try to get one...

> I was advocating saving your money and being an indie, rather than getting a degree. That was my advice...

...which indeed seems to be your intent. That is horrible advice. Your chances of succeeding as an indie are far better with a degree, and a degree gives you the choice of leaving the country and/or working in another industry if necessary (and all the other things I have already stated ad nauseum).

> but pitted against you who clearly gets a royalty from every unie in South Africa our different views boil down to "Which is better in all respects, a PS3 or an 360". It's one of those "personal choice" things.

No, it really isn't -- that is a false analogy. The PS3 and 360 each have very clear and significant advantages and disadvantages, which make them hard to weigh up in general. So far, against a degree, you have only listed a set of obviously bogus cons, and have not refuted anything I have said. A better analagy, would be "Which is better for HIV protection, a condom or a shower?" Your option being the latter.

> I started as an indie with 0% experience and worked my way up to a respected indie and will eventually become a very successful indie and I can do that over here or anywhere else in the world. The degree, in my case, would serve only as a plane ticket out of here.

Do you honestly believe that you would learn nothing beneficial from a degree? How do you even know that you would learn nothing from it?

> - I personally don't want a degree for the job implications
> - work for an oppressor
> - Yeah, that was what I spent 12+ years going to school for... So I can buy a new TV in a year's time or so, if I can save up enough by then, that is...
> - I feel that getting a degree is a way to get yourself trapped in that regime, but earning yourself a more luxurious cell than the little people like myself.

Legendry. Yeah, I've heard that there's nothing like an education to screw up ones future prospects.

Firstly, doing a degree, does not mean that you become an enslaved employee to some dilbertian corporation. You can do whatever you want when you are finished, or even while you are doing it - including indie development.

Secondly, this comic book perspective of employment is ridiculous - there are good jobs, and there are bad jobs. The nice thing about having a degree, is that you have far more freedom in choice, allowing you to take the good jobs, or move from a job you don't like to a better job if you need to. Without a degree, you are more likely to be stuck with the bad jobs.

Thirdly, if you do want to start your own company and do it successfully, there is nothing like solid professional experience in a good company to teach you how. A good portfolio and a degree can easily get you into a top tier company like Sega or Nintendo.

> I tried my hand at the corporate ladder thing.

Very accurate phrasing - trying to advance from an entry level position in a corporation without an education, is very much like trying to climb a ladder with one hand.

> Others are not that brave and require the confines of routine and a steady income

No, that is not bravery. Choosing to be an entrepreneur when you have other lucrative options open to you takes balls. Starting your own company because your only alternative is unemployment or McDonalds is just a matter of course.

I should also add that many people choose employment, not because they're not "brave", but because they get more than enough satisfaction and remuneration from their jobs, and simply wouldn't trade it for the huge amount of laborious frustrating crap that goes along with starting ones own business. There's also that little thing called "fiscal responsibility", but of course that depends on your situation.

So far we have clashed on most (... or was that "all" ) points but your views are clear and makes sense. Though our opinions differed vastly, I have developed a strong respect for your opinions... Unlike me, who speaks only from the heart, you seem to know what you are talking about... making me feel stupid in the process

You know what, after all that talking the point that finally made me agree with you was when you said that you can still be an indie after you get a degree. How do I know I won't benefit from a degree? Are you mad? Of course I will benefit from a degree... but I still won't go through life feeling depressed until the day I die simply because I feel "I was missing out on some important bit of information that I would have benefitted a lot from had I known it". Could I benefit from doing a course in stock markets or a few years learning how to fly? Perhaps learning how to be race car driver? I could benefit, yes. Will I commit suicide the day I realize I only have 12 degrees and I never learnt how to fly? I don't think so. There is always more to learn and everything has the potential of benefitting anyone somehow...

I guess my view on this matter stems from my religious period. I spent years studying the history of religion trying to find the path that is right for me. My revelations will cause too many angry posts so I won't be posting them in here, suffice to say that it had changed my outlook on life since then... My new found outlook on life places myself squarely in charge of my fate. I don't have a degree because I didn't have the money when my parents had to pay for it. Now, anything that happens in my life is my business. If I get one it is because I decided to get one and if I don't it was my choice and nobody else's fault. I have to weigh up the value of everything and decide what gets to have my attention and what doesn't and by that standard I never cry about anything I don't have/ achieved/ experienced.

I am busy trying to get the money together to get a degree, hence all my research on the subject, but I do so for my own reasons, not the "normal" reasons. As with all my previous study (C, Delphi, dHTML, COBOL, Developer 2000, Oracle, SQL, XML, graphic design, desktop publishing, Maya, photography, bla bla bla...) I do it to better myself and nothing else. I personally want the knowledge from a degree so I don't miss out on a bit of info that would have benefitted me had I known it, and nothing more. It is for this reason that I intend to take the Maths course, the AI course and the robotics courses as they are stuff I want to know. The DirectX stuff has no bearing on my life because I don't have nor plan to ever have Windows again. I don't have to bother learning it for the benefit of a future employer because I intend to work for myself ASAP... So once I have taken any and all courses I want/ need, then wether I am qualified according to someone else's standards mean little to nothing to me.

But that is just me and I realize, as you have said, that my advice is bad advice for everyone NOT trying to live my lifestyle so I will end the contribution of my opinions on this subject here...